Kasa CEO on Using Tech to Reimagine the Hotel P&L
So we built this system that does background checks on guests, has decibel meters and marijuana sensors in the units. We have a predictive machine learning based risk score that predicts whether a potential guest will cause an issue in the unit. Unit. It looks at a lot of interesting things like do you live within 30 miles of the property.
Speaker 2:From Hotel Tech Report, it's Hotel Tech Insider, a show about the future of hotels and the technology that powers them. Today on the show, we have a very special guest. We host Roman Padan, the founder and CEO of Casa Living, who earlier this year announced the $70,000,000 series c to continue building their vision for the future of a tech enabled hospitality brand. In this episode, we dive into Casa's tech strategy, how their organization looks, what they decide to build versus buy, and some of the really interesting applications of artificial intelligence in their business that they're looking at today, already accomplished, or looking at for the future.
Speaker 3:Roman, thanks so much for coming on the show today. We're excited to have you.
Speaker 1:Jordan, I'm excited. It's a pleasure.
Speaker 3:I'd love to learn about the cost of business in the quick minute, 2 minute. Where did you start, and where are you guys today, and how do you position yourselves in the market so that we can use that to set the stage for where you guys are at from a technology perspective?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So we're a dinosaur in this industry. We're almost a decade old. I started the business while I was at Stanford Business School between my 1st 2nd year. Prior to that, my background is technology.
Speaker 1:I have a computer science background, started a tech only business in undergrad and real estate. I was in the private equity world at Walton Street Capital, large real estate only private equity firm, and then at KKR where I helped start the real estate practice alongside 6 others. And so in many ways, Casa melds those 2 in our DNA. Above the surface, what many see in Casa is the industry leading hotel and apartment hotel brand and manager. Our goal is to maximize the profitability of hospitality operations while delivering exceptional guest experience.
Speaker 1:And, really, fundamentally, we maximize the profitability by lowering the cost of operating properties. We've automated, centralized, or eliminated parts of a hotel p and l systematically to make them more profitable. We operate across the US. We have 85 properties hosted well over a 1000000 nights in 40 cities. And we're really proud to be trusted by some of the largest and most discerning owners of real estate like Starwood Capital, TPG, Grey Star, KKR, Morgan Stanley.
Speaker 1:It's a long and formidable list. We're proud that they work with us, they trust us, that we're constantly expanding with them. But we get a lot of joy in working with the local developer, the entrepreneur who's building their own brand across the country. That's what folks see above the surface. Happy to delve into kinda what's kinda underneath the surface, but that's the quick background.
Speaker 3:What does the average typical property look like from a amenities staffing perspective? No property type? Is it like service apartment type of buildings? And is it a whole building or a part of a building? Are there any amenities or outlets?
Speaker 1:We actually have a range of property types. We cut our teeth in the service department world, and that's where we really became the industry standard to some of the largest apartment owners. 10 of the 20 largest apartment owners partner with us either exclusively or kind of 1 of 2 partners. And in those formats where either the entire building or a few floors of a larger apartment building. So about a third is where a portion of a larger apartment building, a few floors of 1.
Speaker 1:About a third of our properties are full building apartment hotels. They're apartment hotels with kitchens, living rooms, ones, 2 bedrooms that we operate the entire building. And then about a third are boutique hotels that we are either the soft brand or we're powering someone else's brand in those properties. And our apartment buildings have luxury gyms and rooftops and communal space, but those are part of kind of apartment style communities. In the hotel side, we will have a typical hotel, either rooms only boxes or f and b.
Speaker 1:We have a property that has a 1600 person theater, a rooftop wraparound pool with kind of a wine bar concept and a lobby bar. We typically partner with the best of F and B operators and focus on what we're best in is which is delivering exceptional hospitality experiences to guests and then really profitable operations to the owners.
Speaker 3:And from a multifamily perspective, when a multifamily owner comes to you, what's the job to be done or the problem that they're solving? Is it lease up time that and they want or they wanna, like, kinda diversify their asset into 2 different asset classes to be a little bit more durable in different market conditions. What do they come to you for?
Speaker 1:So apartment owners are recognizing the shift in consumer demand that's kind of underneath the surface, been consistently happening for the last decade, accelerated in COVID, which is the push towards flexible living. People's jobs are more flexible. Their office arrangements are more flexible. So they want living to match their job and their office arrangement and its flexibility. And so activating within their building a set of inventory that can match the growing demand segment for flexible living is really important for owners long term.
Speaker 1:If you pull an apartment owner and ask them, will the future apartment building just service unfurnished 12 month leases? They'll almost all say, no. It'll have an ability to service multiple forms of demand. Unfurnished 12 month, furnished 5 month, but also furnished 3 night, 5 night, 10 night. We're making their buildings future proof.
Speaker 1:That's the long term kind of c level strategic thing we're solving for. What we're solving for the developer, the asset manager, the property manager is we're converting vacancy to cash flow. It's most obvious in a lease up. A lease up will take, developer 18 to 24 months. If you miss the window, you're exposing yourself on the back end as concessions expire and are sort of stuck in 80% occupancy purgatory.
Speaker 1:What we'll do is we'll generate cash flow earlier and more cash flow at stabilization. So when you're just leasing up, we'll fill the property with furnished inventory, and that furnished inventory generates cash flow day 0 and quite a significant amount of cash flow on day 0. And then at stabilization, we generate more than market rent for the owner. And, typically, a building will have vacancy as well. And so in existing already stabilized units, we can take that vacancy and convert it to cash flow for the owner.
Speaker 1:And so the value proposition, the problem we're solving short term is we make the building more profitable. And long term, we make the building more resilient, diversify demand sources, and allow for it to be future proof to a consumer that's increasingly seeking flexibility.
Speaker 3:I imagine when you guys started, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you started more on the multifam several floors of a multifam building and the boutique hotels came later. What was the pivotal moment? Was it opportunistic? A hotel deal came up and you're like, we know how to do all of the things that are required for this. Or how did you guys get there, and how did that grow into becoming, it sounds like, a third of your business today?
Speaker 1:Yeah. And in many ways, the apartment hotels are also a form of hotels. So 2 thirds of our inventory is, hotel building, either apartment inventory or typical rooms without kitchens and living rooms. But it happened very much a lot of the things in the business, you have a good plan and then things happen organically, you adapt to conditions, you solve a real need for your customers that they're banging on your door asking about. And as long as that customer need and opportunity is in the direction of the overall mission and vision of the business, we've been willing to adapt our operations, I think, to our benefit.
Speaker 1:What happened was in COVID, a lot of hotels struggled to stay open. And in a bunch of those hotels saw how efficiently we were operating within an apartment context. We have a very labor lite by necessity model that we've built the technology and the operations to support that drives really high margins by hotel standards. Our apartment units run as hospitality are running close to a 70% gross operating profit margin. And you look at a host report from STR Global, and you see the average US margin for hotels at the same kind of apples to apples line as in the thirties.
Speaker 1:And so we're running an extremely high margin and a low fixed cost model. In COVID, when revenues dropped, owners were really worried about their fixed costs. They couldn't do anything about taxes, insurance, debt service, but they could adjust their labor model to fit the needs of the moment. And they wanted to adjust it both for the amount of fixed cost as well as both the margin, overall margin, and the amount of that that was fixed. And so the first hotel was a hotel in San Francisco where the owner, kind of out of desperation, came to us saying we need a different solution.
Speaker 1:And we said we believe our product can work for you. We haven't tested it. But then very quickly after operating the property for 9 months saw really good results, which led to the second property, which, again, we delivered strong results on, which led to the 3rd. And today, we're close to 30 hotel properties across the US.
Speaker 3:When you think about reorienting a labor model, there has to be some processes or usually technology or digital tools that enable that. Can you talk me through day 1, you guys launched Casa? What was the technology strategy, and how has that evolved to today where you have these different types of properties in the portfolio? What have you guys built? What does the team look like?
Speaker 3:Everything like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So we started the business trying to solve the problem of delivering, you know, unique profitability to owners and an exceptional guest experience in a, at the time, format that was not in great supply in the United States, which is apartment style hospitality. And we endeavor to do that by building the least amount possible and using the most off the shelf tooling. Obviously, it's really expensive to build new technology. It's expensive to maintain new technology.
Speaker 1:My background is half real estate and half technology. So we knew we had that as a superpower if we needed to, but we tried very hard to avoid it given its difficulty. And so we decided we'll only build new technology if it's core to our competitive advantage and kind of our goals that we are seeking to really optimize for for our partners. And if it doesn't exist on the market or doesn't exist in a way that will deliver on our goals effectively. So we used off the shelf PMS to start.
Speaker 1:We tried a couple of PMSs. We used kinda off the shelf systems across the board. And then we focused on building only the things that didn't exist or caused the most problems and were required most by our partners. The first thing we built was a trust and safety system. We don't have as many on-site folks.
Speaker 1:These were in these apartment buildings where they're long term residents, and our partners who are these institutions who really treasure the fabric of the community. Amly Residential, for example, is one of the top managers of apartments in the world. And they are an owner and operator, and they have no tolerance for causing any issues for the long term residents. So we built this system that does background checks on guests, has decibel meters and marijuana sensors in the units. We have a predictive machine learning based risk score that predicts whether a potential guest will cause an issue in the unit.
Speaker 1:It looks at a lot of interesting things like, do you live within 30 miles of the property, which isn't higher risk indicator of your likelihood of throwing a party, and it takes different actions. And so we built that first. It didn't exist in the market. It was extremely necessary to our successful operation. And we did that over and over and over again over the years, found things that didn't exist, built them.
Speaker 1:One day, we woke up and we had built a PMS by necessity, not by, like, that was our plan. And so now we have our own property management system as our brain that really is focused on optimizing the profitability of hospitality while delivering a great guest experience. And then we've partnered with a lot of third parties that integrate via API into that brain, but at the core is our own system. And I think it's unique that we have the operations and the technology and the feedback loop is really powerful. We can very quickly solve for things that a PMS provider may not realize is as important or may not be able to activate in the right way because they don't control the operations themselves.
Speaker 3:Have you guys built your own guest tech? Like, what is the check-in to servicing within stay, whether that's to someone on property to get something as basic as a towel or whatever or to customer service centralized? Did you guys have to build that because you have those two things in tandem? Whereas with Marriott Bonvoy, I'm not reaching out to their central customer support people for stuff and stay usually.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So we've built our own booking engine. And the reason we built that is it needs to really tightly integrate with our pre arrival checklist, which ensures that before you arrive to the property, you've uploaded your ID and selfie. You only need to do that once with Casa. But for the 1st day, we need to verify your reservation much like a person at a front desk would need to do that.
Speaker 1:We built that pre arrival checklist flow. It's very core to us. That's also the place where the hotelier can upsell for early check-in if they wanna charge for it. They can offer room upgrades. They can add parking.
Speaker 1:They can ask for special requests. We also from the ID that folks upload, we pull out the information that's useful for understanding what segment of demand they represent. We get everyone's age and his date of birth, obviously, and age and ZIP code and anything that's on an ID or use OCR to pull out and then make sure that we can service the guest more effectively and understand the guest more effectively. And so that flow, we've built ourselves. And then the virtual front desk, which is partially helpful tool to help you get into the unit when there isn't a front desk person physically there.
Speaker 1:It guides you with photos and text from your Uber or your car to the inside of your unit in a few steps. And we have keypads on the exterior of the building and on your unit. We have a code setting service that ensures that a unique code is set and securely and is wiped post your stay. We know when you've unlocked different doors, so we can send you a welcome message when you've arrived kinda thing, and all that is very tightly integrated. And the hard part about self check-in and why most of the brands offer it but still staff essentially a full front desk, and as a result, it's a nice feature but not a cost savings to the owner.
Speaker 1:And frankly, in many cases, is done in a clunky enough way that it's not even a good experience for the guest. The reason why that's the case is they're using 10 different systems that don't talk to each other effectively. A lot of legacy systems are part of that. And 2, there's this long tail of issues that are really challenging to solve around self check-in. You know, there's people who book through the GDS and you're not able to get their email addresses as effectively.
Speaker 1:There are people who put in, you know, their assistant books on their behalf. There's just a myriad of these issues that we've gone 1 by 1 by 1, and it's like it was easy to get to 90% self check-in effectively. It was really hard to get to 98%, and we're probably at, like, 90 we're not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I believe we're the most comprehensive solution to self check-in. So, yeah, we've built the booking engine, we've built the pre arrival checklist, and we've built the self check-in, system. And then there's a kiosk at the property for folks who need it.
Speaker 1:And that's an option for the owner, but we think that for most properties, it makes sense. It allows for people, you know, who are confused to very quickly get to their room even if they didn't do it ahead of this day.
Speaker 3:We haven't really talked about the org structure at Caso. Maybe we start with how is the tech team organized? And then just more broadly, what does your org structure looks like? And how is that different from, let's say, a traditional hotel management company, in your opinion?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So we're fairly I think, we're not reinventing the wheel on the tech side nor on the organization around hotel operations. Although, we are probably more centralized in hotel operations, generally speaking. On the tech side, we're an agile kind of shop. We have kinda self sustaining pods that have every person that they need to ship finished code within them from product to engineering to design.
Speaker 1:We have really 2 main pods. 1 is focused on revenue and channels, and 1 is focused on hospitality, although they really deeply interact. One of the things that's really unique to us is that we control and have operations in addition to technology, and we use that as a superpower where our operating teams are deeply connected to the technology team. And if something comes up that can make a material difference, either the guest experience or the profitability to owners that the tech team didn't think of but the operations team highlights, that will go to the top of our list in terms of what we prioritize on the road map. On the operations side, where we have different regions that have portfolio general managers who oversee those regions, they really have full P and L ownership.
Speaker 1:They work in pods with revenue and accounting and themselves as the manager portfolio general managers who ultimately owns the p and l to ensure that we're thinking about revenue management and guest experience all in one thought. Those portfolio general managers are supported by centralized services, which is a robust set of services that allow for them to really focus on the guest as much as possible. That includes accounting, centralized accounting, that includes centralized customer service, revenue management, corporate and group sales, as well as leasing. So kind of the gamut of things. So we take off as much off their plate so that they can focus on the guest and on the properties and the owners.
Speaker 3:I know you guys have 2 different models. So you've got your properties that you guys operate, and then you also have a powered by Cosworth business. Can we talk about when did that come about, and was there a specific customer that drove you guys in that direction?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So we're super excited about this. Because if you zoom out and ask yourself, what is Casa truly? What are we really best at? You'll kinda see that we're at the cart and operating system.
Speaker 1:Like, an operating system in the true sense of the word operating system where we have an operating component and we have a technology component. And that operating system, fundamentally, it improves the profitability of kinda overlooked hospitality or concepts in hospitality that otherwise are not well served by the traditional brands and which need kind of a solution in terms of technology, infrastructure, and centralized services. And so that is what the operating system is. It is technology infrastructure centralized services. It's our PMS, and it's connected systems associated with it.
Speaker 1:It's the centralized services of accounting, revenue managements, corporate sales, and group sales, reservations, etcetera. What it does is it powers kind of hospitality for brands and owners for whom the traditional systems are not a good fit, the traditional brands and managers are not a good fit. Maybe they're too small. They're too niche y. Apartment hotels are an example.
Speaker 1:The traditional systems are just not a good fit. So our offering to the apartment community and to apartment hotels is a subset of this operating system, but so is our ability to operate and power other brands. How it came to be is just like the hotel world, kind of a natural expansion as a result of pull from our customers. That customer was Starwood Capital, which was seeking a different infrastructure layer for one of their apartment hotel brands called Tucker. And we had worked with them in other context in the past.
Speaker 1:They had seen our systems. We've done demos of our technology to them. And they made the comment saying, hey, this technology would be useful, and centralized services and infrastructure would be really useful to us because it allows us to focus all of our attention and then what we do best and where we believe we're differentiated in creating value. For us, that's the site selection. That's the brand activation.
Speaker 1:That's the creativity behind the guest experience. We know we have to do accounting, but we're not gonna be paid for being better than the next company that's building a brand at accounting. We know that we have to put together a tech stack, but we're not gonna be paid for first off, it's not our expertise. Second off, we're not gonna be paid for putting together the 10 systems and then trying to make sure they talk to each other. And then the centralized services, reservations, and guest experience.
Speaker 1:As long as you're able to tailor your approach to our brand voice, we don't wanna hire 50 people in reservations. One, it won't be economic. And 2, that is just isn't the thing that we will differentiate our brand on. And so we started operating with them. They had a different set of systems in place.
Speaker 1:We improved revenue by 30% almost immediately. Like, really, we're excited by those results. We improved review scores a tremendous amount, also in that 30% range. And then after the doing that, we haven't even publicized this that we do it. But we spoke to a few others, mentioned it in passing in conversations, and had a lot of demand from people building brands or building hospitality concepts that want to have all the best infrastructure, the best centralized services, and the best technology all given to them with an easy button, and it's been exciting to deliver on that.
Speaker 3:So it's obviously a sensitive subject, but there's been some kind of, call it, service apartment hospitality brands that have popped up over the years, and there's been some turbulence in that space. What do you think sets Casa apart from some of these other brands that have kind of run into some roadblocks from a strategic perspective. What are the turning points or pivotal moments for your business that you feel puts you guys on a different path?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So when we started the business, this was the hottest sector in the venture world. We were probably, like, the 16th company that was funded in this sector. There were probably, like, 25 of us owners. We're excited but confused why there were so many companies in the sector.
Speaker 1:Today, we're really the leading company. Unfortunately, a lot of the businesses that had great promise ended up running into a bunch of problems and went bankrupt or disappeared. The reason for that there were some and obviously, we've gotten lucky along the way, so I certainly wouldn't chalk it up to strategic brilliance on its own. Though our team has worked exceptionally hard, and I think we've made some thoughtful choices in how we've architected the business. A lot of these businesses, there was a great flood in the pandemic, and two things came together.
Speaker 1:1, revenues dropped by 80% for our industry for a relatively short period of time, but that can be a death sentence for companies that are still in their embryonic stage. But they also most of these companies worked in master lease formats. So they similar to WeWork, they went to owners and offered to pay a fixed rent. And and then if they were making a profit above the rent, they'd pocket it. But if they were making a loss below the rent, they would be on the hook for it.
Speaker 1:These are often not very sustainable contracts to begin with. But in COVID, that was accentuated because their revenue dropped, and that led to a lot of companies not making it through. And, certainly, you see in the news, Saunders, today, that the base of their business is these 10 year contracts that are not profitable at the unit level, at least according to what I can tell from their public filings. And as a result, that creates a not sustainable business long term. It's perhaps a subtle point, master leases versus management agreements or revenue shares.
Speaker 1:But it's actually an even more profound point than just the economic arrangement between the owner and the company because it also is a signal of product market fit. In a lease, you're paying your customer who is the owner. You're going and saying, hey, maybe I can pay you to operate the building. In our context, we are charging a fee to deliver our services. And the reason we charge a fee is because we can deliver more profits to the owner than they could make without us and a better guest experience.
Speaker 1:But we'll only grow in our context if we're doing delivering on our promise. And we'll grow with the same partner. We'll expand to other partners because they'll talk to, you know, references. And we've been really excited that we've grown mostly through same part a lot of our growth has been through same partner expansion. In a lease model, you'll grow if you can pay your lease.
Speaker 1:And so Casa's model is the old school model, frankly, the Marriott, Hilton, Hyatt, Wyndham model of either management agreements or powered by agreements which are more closer to kind of the franchise approach and not leases. That was the kind of level 1 of what we did different. Level 2 is we've focused on institutional owners as well as the local owners. Most of the other companies in this sector focus just on local owners. Why?
Speaker 1:Because as a venture business, local owners are faster to close versus Starwood Capital and TPG, they have deep compliance departments. They're very thorough, and to earn their trust requires a lot of data. And so some of these are 2, 3 year sales cycles, which, you know, you're trying to grow as quickly as possible in some of these companies, and you don't have the patience for those. But they can be really powerful in terms of the scalability of the platform with those partners. And the third is we've actually built our own technology, which I would say is non consensus at this point.
Speaker 1:You always wanna be non consensus and right. I believe we're the only company that has operations that also has technology. And although a lot of companies have tried and a lot have abandoned their efforts from building first party technology, we believe that it allows us to deliver a unique experience to guests and a unique profitability to owners, and we can show that in the p and l's. But that's not consensus. We believe it's not consensus and right, but that's another area of distinction between us.
Speaker 3:What are some of the most exciting applications of Gen AI that you're seeing today or that you guys are really focused on right now?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's interesting. I've been seeing a lot of businesses that are, like, basically taking old world businesses, like accounting businesses, old world front ends, and then the thesis is to automate a lot of the work that is heavy labor on the back end using Gen AI. And I think that's likely going to be a fairly interesting thesis to build businesses around in the future. In many ways, if you were to have that thesis for hotel management and services business, you know, a business that's in the hotel management world automated quite significantly by AI, Gen AI, or otherwise, you'd build Casa along that road to that company.
Speaker 1:And we didn't obviously know about generative AI when we started the business or at least it wasn't in our plans. There was a kind of a leap forward when the world awoke to what was possible. But we lucked into the fact that the tenets behind our business really fit well with what you'd needed the business to look like to use AI. What are those tenets? We're very centralized.
Speaker 1:So everything you know, a lot of the systems and data are all flow through including customer service. You're texting us. You're emailing us. It's centralized and digitized. All of our processes, whether it's accounting, revenue management, sales, customer service, we've structured and cleaned all the data about our whether it's the reservation, the guest, or much more importantly, the property.
Speaker 1:So what is the thermostat in a given unit? You know, we have the model number centrally kind of tracked, and we can pull up kinda how to use it as a result of that. And we also and finally, you know, we control some of the underlying systems, which allows us to really deeply integrate in a cohesive way artificial intelligence. And so we're just kind of at the start of putting it into everything that we do. But in theory, anything that's centralized can be enhanced in a deep way, whether it's revenue management, distributions, accounting, customer service, using generative AI, or trust and safety, which I mentioned earlier.
Speaker 1:Our predictive risk algorithm is a machine learning algorithm at its heart. Today, the most obvious use case is in customer service for us where a typical hotel, most of the conversations are analog. For us, it's all digital because, you know, you're not going to a physical front desk where the information is lost. For us, you're texting us or emailing us or calling us, all of which are digital. And right now, we're answering direct to guest almost 20% of the questions with Copilot serving as a enhancer for our existing team for another 60% of questions.
Speaker 1:So if you're a customer service person on our side, we call it guest experience. You'll get a recommended answer for every question that's generated by AI. But for 20% of questions, it will just go and send directly to guests, and we're increasing that every month. The input into that is that we have very good data about our properties, very good data about our, obviously, every other element of the state. Super exciting, and I think we're just scratching the surface.
Speaker 1:It'll take some time to really operationalize these things. You crawl, walk, run, but the impact and power to the guests, the profitability of the properties is huge.
Speaker 3:And outside customer service, any other applications that you're really excited about?
Speaker 1:Revenue management is another. So some of the automated steps related to exceptions handling, I'm excited, but we do not yet use it in distributions in terms of optimizing our listings, both the content, the order of photography, the, like, making adjustments to the listings based on data in a recursive way. And so those are areas which are both core to the guest experience, are huge cost centers in some cases, and also can deliver outsized revenue results.
Speaker 3:Anything else that we haven't covered that you think makes Casa unique or that you're really excited about for the future of the industry?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I appreciate the opportunity to share our story. Hopefully, some of the folks listening had a there's some tidbits that are useful. Folks can email me at roman@casa.com or find me on LinkedIn if they have follow ups. I think this is really comprehensive.
Speaker 1:I think we're at a very, very exciting moment in the hospitality world where convergence of changes in consumer behavior needs in terms of what owners require in their p and l's and opportunities in technology all are converging. And I'm just excited to both watch the movie in the hotel world as it unfolds in the next decade and also hopefully be a leading part in it as well.
Speaker 3:Alright. Thanks so much for coming on, Roman.
Speaker 2:That's all for today's episode. Thanks for listening to Hotel Tech Insider produced by hoteltechreport.com. Our goal with this podcast is to show you how the best in the business are leveraging technology to grow their properties and outperform the concept by using innovative digital tools and strategies. I encourage all of our listeners to go try at least one of these strategies or tools that you learned from today's episode. Successful digital transformation is all about consistent small experiments over a long period of time, so don't wait until tomorrow to try something new.
Speaker 2:Do you know a hotelier who would be great to feature on this show, or do you think that your story would bring a lot of value to our audience? Reach out to me directly on LinkedIn by searching for Jordan Hollander. For more episodes like this, follow Hotel Tech Insider on all major streaming platforms like Spotify and Apple Music.
